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Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!

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27 Oct 2017 00:18 #65287 by watchthis1993
Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!! was created by watchthis1993
Just got a jumper T8SG To replace all my radios. It's a nice little radio. I can do most everything with it other than getting any of my deltas to fly on it. If someone could make me a quick template I would appreciate it. I've tried several others on the forum and none of them work so please don't insult me by telling me to use the search bar. My channels are as follows - Ch1 = Ail Ch2 = Ele Ch3 = Thr Ch4 = Rud

I've followed videos to write my own, I've downloaded several templates and can't make any of them work. I don't want the mix on a switch I just want it to bind and work. I'm sure it's something simple I'm missing. Thanks for your time

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22 Nov 2017 18:54 - 22 Nov 2017 18:57 #66068 by vlad_vy
Replied by vlad_vy on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
I edited elevon template with dual rate for T8SG (SW A). You can test it.

File Attachment:

File Name: elevon2.zip
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Last edit: 22 Nov 2017 18:57 by vlad_vy.

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07 Mar 2018 05:12 #67944 by han04
Replied by han04 on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
work in all firmware t8sg ?

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07 Mar 2018 09:58 #67950 by Fernandez
Replied by Fernandez on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
www.deviationtx.com/forum/model-requests...or-flying-wing#66949


Would be great if we can have more default templates already stored in the standard builds, so a flying wing with a dual rate, throttle hold etc can be easily just selected as kind of template ?

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07 Mar 2018 11:03 #67951 by han04
Replied by han04 on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
how add new tamplate on jumper t8sg ?

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07 Mar 2018 11:15 #67953 by FDR
Simply copy it to the templates folder of the USB drive...

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07 Mar 2018 12:06 #67954 by han04
Replied by han04 on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
my problem , usb driver not deteck in my pc i dont no why , i install driver in driver c but failed . can you help me , my pc win 7 32 bit .

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07 Mar 2018 12:26 #67956 by vlad_vy
Replied by vlad_vy on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
For USB drive mode you don't need any driver, press ENT and Power On transmitter, it will be detected as removable drive.

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07 Mar 2018 12:37 #67957 by han04
Replied by han04 on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
i try , but same failed . my pc dont deteck my storge tx

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06 May 2018 10:37 #69079 by Donthemon
Replied by Donthemon on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
Hi - I tried the model.ini file supplied on my Devo 7 and FRSky RX. However, whatever I do I can't stop the aileron movements being reversed. Also, as with most flying wings I need v.small movements on the elevator and large movements on the ailerons.

How do I get these changes made? I am sure that it must be possible but how these mixes are set up make no sense to my tiny brain! :sick:

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Thanks

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06 May 2018 20:27 #69085 by Donthemon
Replied by Donthemon on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
Hi Again - I need to do the following:

Elevon mix for flying wing: 2 x wing servos (1 each side)
Mode 2 Elevator stick movement giving me each surface moving 4mm up/down - each surface going up and down together
Mode 2 Aileron stick movement giving me 11mm up/down - each surface going up and down in opposition
I don't need rates, expo or anything else EXCEPT that I need far less elevator movement than aileron movement (as with most flying wings).

After a couple of days (6+ hrs so far..) looking at this, I have the following model.ini BUT
- When using the Elevator stick, only the left hand wing surface moves, although at least it's in the right direction(!)
- When using the Aileron stick, both surfaces move in the correct direction but the left hand surface has differential movement and moves more than the right hand hand surface.

I cannot believe that something so simple should be so difficult to achieve, so I must be doing something really silly! PLEASE, anyone who can help, any help you can give me would be so gratefully received as I cannot get any further! :(
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07 May 2018 01:41 - 07 May 2018 01:56 #69087 by Gerry
Replied by Gerry on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
I have attached two delta ini files for the 7e both for FrSky Rx. You may need to change protocol to FrSky-V8 and switches to your preference
First is a simple mix without any rates and second with dual rates on FMOD switch.
Both models have "sticky throttle hold" programmed on Virtual channel 3 and Hold Switch.

Edit. IIRC the aileron servo is left wing and elevator servo is right wing.

Devo 7e A7105 NRF24L01 CC2500 2x3 way & voice, Devo 12e 4 in 1 & voice.
FFS (Forever Fixing Stuff)
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Last edit: 07 May 2018 01:56 by Gerry.

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07 May 2018 06:47 #69090 by Donthemon
Replied by Donthemon on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
Gerry - the simple mix is exactly what I need for the servo direction of movement config, many thanks.

However, how do I change the amounts of movement for the Elevator stick i.e I need the Elevator stick to make both surfaces move less BUT I still need the Aileron stick to move the surfaces a lot?

If I adjust the 'Simple' Scale-/Scale+ values for each channel, this affects the servo plugged into that channel for both Elevator AND Aileron. If I change the Scale value in the complex mixes, this has no effect on anything e.g I can set the Scale value to half what it was for the Ail/Elev/Virt1/Virt2 complex mixes and the servos move exactly the same amounts as before the change (so you could ask what the purpose of the Scale value in Complex mixes is, as changing it does not change anything at all to do with how the plugged in servo moves).

So, many thanks for the mixes but they still don't help me get the Elevator stick to move the surfaces half the amount that the Aileron stick does. I have checked the Forum and this seems to be a common problem that everyone trying to create an Elevon mix keeps having, so maybe Deviation does not let you make this quite simple mix?. Someone does refer to a fix for this problem but only for a Banggood TX running Deviation and...they don't then say what the fix is! :sick: :sick:

This seems to be a common problem with any complex mix I try- the mix allows you to mix a simple stick input to multiple servos but it is then impossible to change the servo movement amount by stick input rather than the RX channel that the servo is plugged into. Is this a Deviation bug or 'undisclosed feature'?

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07 May 2018 09:57 #69092 by Gerry
Replied by Gerry on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
That ini was probably not the best example of complex mixing but it worked when I originally did it.

Attached is the same simple delta ini with a couple small edits, again you will need to select correct frsky protocol and set switch for sticky throttle hold (done in virt3 page 3).

To change elevator scale - edit virt1 page 1 scale and virt2 page 2 scale to matching lower values
To change aileron scale - edit virt1 page 2 scale and virt2 page 1 scale again these values must match each other.
This is the only place you should need to edit to change scales of ele & ail.

Devo 7e A7105 NRF24L01 CC2500 2x3 way & voice, Devo 12e 4 in 1 & voice.
FFS (Forever Fixing Stuff)
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07 May 2018 10:26 #69094 by Donthemon
Replied by Donthemon on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
Hi - fixed it! Many thanks to Gerry (who is indeed THE man) and various others who have helped on this. Below is a synopsis of the solution - apologies to experienced users who already know all of this (but I didn't and couldn't find it noted down anywhere
- the Manual is great, but only if you already know the answer! :blink: ):
- I used 'Complex' mixes on this (Gerry sent me some great model.inis but I just can't get my head around how you can adjust the Complex and Virtual mixes to get each full stick movement to match the full control surface movements. Sorry: almost certainly my mistake.
- The 'Holding the "ENT"' key to save Complex mix changes while making them was crucial. I'd seen it in the manual but making changes to a mix that aren't immediately reflected in the control surface movements was so counter-intuitive that I didn't understand what the manual was talking about.
- The attached model.ini is for the Alula-Trek DLG but should be good for any other Delta:
Each stick input has Complex mix, with two mixes per stick.
AIL stick:
Mix 1 - straight to aileron.
Mix 2 - to elevator with % scale as required (i.e control surface throw)
Ele stick:
reverse
Mix 1 - to elevator with % scale as required (i.e control surface throw)
Mix 2 - straight to aileron
- I also found by trial and error the v.confusing relationship between Min Limit/Max Limit/Scale-/Scale+ on the simple mix page for each TX control. By selecting different values for these you can ensure that a full stick movement is reflected by the full control surface movement. If you don't make these changes, you find that a control surface has already move all that it's going to move when the stick is only halfway across.
So, nine hours later and I've got the model setup (to compare, the same mix on a Graupner MC24 TX took 3 mins). Many thanks again!
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10 May 2018 00:55 #69150 by Gerry
Replied by Gerry on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
With Deviation there are different ways of doing mixes that can achieve the same results. Is there a "right" way?
I use my Devo for helis, planes, quads, boats and cars and the only times I have had to use end limits is when programming swash mixes for helicopters.

I have attached 2 more ini's for simple delta mix without using virtual channels, the difference between these two ini's is the page order of the complex mix pages for ele and ail channels.

model44.ini has the mixes for aileron on ail channel complex page 1 and ele channel complex page 2
mixes for elevator on ail channel complex page 2 and ele channel complex page 1

model45.ini has the mixes for aileron on ail channel complex page 1 and ele channel complex page 1
mixes for elevator on ail channel complex page 2 and ele channel complex page 2

The only item in the basic channel settings needed to be adjusted for this model should be sub-trim, the rest of the settings should probably be left default.

Devo 7e A7105 NRF24L01 CC2500 2x3 way & voice, Devo 12e 4 in 1 & voice.
FFS (Forever Fixing Stuff)
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18 May 2018 15:36 #69299 by Donthemon
Replied by Donthemon on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
Gerry - many thanks for all of your efforts so far.

I suppose that my main problem here is not understanding how changing all of these parameters affects the movement of the control surfaces. Model44 & 45 seem to be similar to ones I have already tried and they ALL have the same issues:
1 - One servo is plugged into channel 1 (Ail), one servo is plugged into channel 2 (Elev)
2 - I need the elevator transmitter stick movement to move both delta wing control surfaces up together or down together, with a total up movement of 4mm and a total down movement of 4mm
3 - I need the aileron stick movement to move both delta wing control surfaces up and down in opposition, with the surface moving up having a max movement of 10mm and the surface moving down having a max movement of 10mm.
4 - With any mix I have tried so far, I can't seem to adjust the movement of both surfaces moving together i.e for an elevator stick movement I can get one servo to move the correct amount by changing the 'Scale' value in the complex mix page but changing the equivalent 'Scale' value in the complex mix page of the other channel does not get the other surface movement amount to change OR if I make an Elevator change, it affects the amount of movement the surface has when Aileron is being used, which is bizarre
5 - So, I can change one servo's movement to e.g 1/2 the movement of the other but...I can't find a way of synchronising the changes to achieve the movements I need in both surfaces (as in point 2 and 3 above).
It does seem extraordinary that something so easy should be so hard to achieve, so what am I missing? Is it because I have been changing the Min/Max Limit values in the simple mixes to stop the servos stalling or is it something else?
In a previous post, I seemed to have found a way of getting this all to work but no such luck!
It would be so useful if there was a set of instructions showing a practical example of mixing two channels against each other as I use this quite a lot e.g 'V' tail, Delta. Most models need different values at the servos e.g elevator is half the Aileron movement, so it must be possible with Deviation, but how (sob!)?

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19 May 2018 02:12 #69307 by Gerry
Replied by Gerry on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
You appear to have a good basic understanding of the servo interactions for a delta to work. Two servos each controlling two functions symmetrically.

Setting min/max limits and scale at the simple channel level will effect both functions on that servo which may not be desirable for this type of model mix, I would leave them default 150 and 100 respectively, at least until you get the correct movements of control surfaces for stick inputs.

If your subtrim for each channel is very different then mechanical setup of the plane will need to be addressed.

Likewise the push rods between the servo and control surface need to be arranged to give best resolution of control, closer to the output shaft on the servo and further away from the pivot at the control surface for best resolution, ideally you want FULL travel of servo to give the desired deflection of control surface. Start with the ailerons at 100% scale and set the push rods positions to get as close as you can to your max desired deflection (14mm in each direction) at full stick travel then use scale to fine tune.
IMO trying to use tx programming to make up for poor mechanical setup is asking for disaster.

For simplicity look at model45.ini
Each channel has a two page complex mix, page one on each channel mix controls ailerons and page two on each channel mix controls elevator.
Hypothetically if the mechanical setup is 100% correct for servo throw to control surface movement this ini would need the scale on page one of each channel to be about 70 (70% of 14mm is 9.8mm) and the scale on page two for each channel to be about 30 (30% of 14mm is 4.2mm). A combined full aileron + full elevator input in this scenario would give about 14mm of control surface movement in either direction from neutral.

If the control surfaces move in the opposite direction to stick input then reverse the stick input in the mixer pages.
For the ailerons the source for both channels should be the same (ail or !ail) for the elevator the source for the inputs needs to have one normal and one reversed in the mixer.

Devo 7e A7105 NRF24L01 CC2500 2x3 way & voice, Devo 12e 4 in 1 & voice.
FFS (Forever Fixing Stuff)

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19 May 2018 18:01 #69325 by Donthemon
Replied by Donthemon on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
Gerry - all good points, well made. However, I am mainly a glider flyer and these need a particular set of mixes not found in any other flying discipline.

1. Out of 3 large scale and 6 fibreglass/carbon moulded gliders I currently have flying, all but two have an aileron servo and a flap servo in each wing half.
2. The Aileron surfaces move approx. twice as much up as they do down, to avoid 'Adverse yaw' (basically, too much down aileron causes drag which counteracts the aileron control input). So, each aileron servo needs to have twice the 'Up' movement as 'Down' movement.
3. The flap servos are linked to the aileron servos (i.e Ail mix to flap) so that Ail + flap servo on each wing can give a full wing aileron if required, and these flap surfaces also need twice the 'Up' as 'Down' BUT less total movement than the Ailerons to avoid the drag problems of control surfaces near to a fuselage. Also, the mix from the Aileron servos is on a switch so I can have it switchable in or out.
4. I have another 3 pos switch set to droop or lift the Ailerons (and flaps if switched in) so I can have a 'lift' setting with a slightly drooped full trailing edge or a 'speed' setting with a slightly lifted trailing edge.
5. Finally, I have 'crow flaps' on the throttle stick where both ailerons lift and both flaps drop, to give an airbrake for landing. This is also switchable so that inadvertent throttle stick movement doesn't accidentally operate crow flap.

For all of these mixes, I need to be able to set adjustable travels for each direction, for each servo, for each of the mixes and as all mixes can be in operation at once I need to be able to set max travel limits to stop servos tearing themselves out of their mounts e.g full aileron + crow flap can = 300% movement if no travel limits are set. I also need sub-trims as regardless how careful you are with similar pushrods, servo and control horns you always need to subtly adjust each servos resting position. Also, on a moulded model, you are often severely limited on servo and control horn sizes that will fit into the mouldings.

I have been using the Deviation Elevon mix as a test of how I could possibly use Deviation to create mixes where servos mix to/from each other, with different amounts of movement, by TX stick input, by mix. For a 2 or 4 wing servo glider, the mixes above are absolutely standard ones found in almost any performance or scale glider over 1.5m span. Using a JR347, a JR388 or a Graupner MC24 transmitter, all of these mixes are built in. You select the mix and then just select the movement percentages, direction, sub trims etc and the transmitter deals with how the surfaces all need to be mixed together.

Deviation seems to be a whole different ball game: sort of like you buy a car and what is delivered is a crate of parts with no instructions! ;) Also, it's not clear that Deviation can do this sort of mixing with any sort of ease, or even at all.

Still, I have now created myself a full test rig on the bench to see how these mixes can be used to create the movement percentages and mixes I need and I've used your very helpful suggestions and .ini files as a start point. It'll keep me out of mischief for the next couple of days!

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20 May 2018 01:26 #69329 by Gerry
Replied by Gerry on topic Simple Elevons mix with dual rate please!!
Several years ago I was in the same place trying to figure out how to make the delta work, eventually I got it to work.
At the time I had a Devo 7e without extra switches so it was very limited. The DeltaDRFrSky ini I posted previously is that first attempt, it worked but could have been better. I understand the logic of Deviation a little better now than then, but am still no expert.

My 7e (I also have a Devo 12e and Taranis X9D) now has extra switches added so I started looking at the way I wrote that DeltaDRFrSky ini, since it was done so long ago. Then completely re-programmed the delta and model45.ini was born without any rates. It is a cleaner more logical way to program the delta than my previous attempts. I still wanted to add dual rates to this model so changed the model45.ini have dual rates. Over the last couple days I have attempted to write an tutorial/walkthrough for programming delta wings with deviation. The first part of the tutorial is based on the posted model45.ini, the second part of the tutorial progresses in a, hopefully, logical fashion to setting up dual rates for the same delta wing, model46.ini is the progression.

Please have a look at the attached tutorial and dual rate model46.ini, it is setup up with 3 rates of aileron on one switch and 2 rates of elevators on another switch.

Hopefully the tutorial makes sense, it is the first time I have tried to write this type of document. Suggestions for refinements welcome.

Devo 7e A7105 NRF24L01 CC2500 2x3 way & voice, Devo 12e 4 in 1 & voice.
FFS (Forever Fixing Stuff)
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